Curse

silicagel · Jul 04, 2009, 09:04 PM // 21:04

First of all I have to laugh at the premise of this thread because defy pain isn't used in any serious pvp arenas and nor is it a problem in any serious pvp arenas(quite laughable in fact). Anything pretty much goes in ab, ra and the like. I feel the need to point out that other annoying tank builds are quite common in these places(i.e. terratank). If you think defy pain is harder to counter, you're completely wrong. Standard anti-melee counters work on defy pain warriors as well as adrenaline denial. Something I don't see in pvp too often is a certain illusion magic skill called soothing images, which could probably be used in ab to good effect.

I also feel inclined to say that the amount of anti-melee conditions/hexes etc. are staggering compared to the anti-caster tools. Casters have a clear advantage in being able to effectively use skills without being hampered by conditions and hexes--this is why many pve monks never bring removal for either, which is mind boggling when you realize what martial weapon classes(yes, even warriors) are capable of.. but that's another topic.

Tyla · Jul 04, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by silicagel

If you think defy pain is harder to counter, you're completely wrong. Standard anti-melee counters work on defy pain warriors as well as adrenaline denial. Something I don't see in pvp too often is a certain illusion magic skill called soothing images, which could probably be used in ab to good effect.

Withering off the topic of Defy Pain slightly, Soothing Images isn't used against Warriors anyway, so what makes you think Defy Pain will make it usable when one of the main strengths of a Warrior is adrenaline anyway? Now we've got no Warriors' Endurance, Soothing Images completely wrecks a Warrior. But why isn't it used? Why bring it up just because of Defy Pain?

Do you not think counters are already widely used? Why not talk blind instead, which is a lot more versatile than Soothing Images?

Now caster tanks, let's look at the list of counters that work for them and not for Warriors...

Enchantment removal.
Interruption.
Knockdowns.

All of the three have more usesb, and can easily counter a caster tank while being effective out of that scenario - not to mention that caster tanks often sacrifice mobility by a large margin in order to tank.

Quote:

I also feel inclined to say that the amount of anti-melee conditions/hexes etc. are staggering compared to the anti-caster tools. Casters have a clear advantage in being able to effectively use skills without being hampered by conditions and hexes--this is why many pve monks never bring removal for either, which is mind boggling when you realize what martial weapon classes(yes, even warriors) are capable of.. but that's another topic.

You have my agreement here. As far as prevention on melee goes, I'd say that quite a bit can hit any melee hard. Still though, I think that Defy Pain is only good for prolonging games and griefing which sets it apart.

silicagel · Jul 04, 2009, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Withering off the topic of Defy Pain slightly, Soothing Images isn't used against Warriors anyway, so what makes you think Defy Pain will make it usable when one of the main strengths of a Warrior is adrenaline anyway? Now we've got no Warriors' Endurance, Soothing Images completely wrecks a Warrior. But why isn't it used? Why bring it up just because of Defy Pain?

Do you not think counters are already widely used? Why not talk blind instead, which is a lot more versatile than Soothing Images?

Now caster tanks, let's look at the list of counters that work for them and not for Warriors...

Enchantment removal.
Interruption.
Knockdowns.

All of the three have more usesb, and can easily counter a caster tank while being effective out of that scenario - not to mention that caster tanks often sacrifice mobility by a large margin in order to tank.

Terratanks tend to bring obsidian flesh, which makes enchant removal slightly harder, but interruptions and KD still work fine. Interestingly, these tools work on defy pain warriors as well. I used a dev hammer warrior with disrupting dagger and no self-heal to kill a defy pain tank not more than two days ago. The KDs prevented his adrenaline gain, the weakness screwed his "damage" and DD prevented his heals.. he went down in a hurry. Granted he had no counters for me. If you're using defy pain in pvp, you're most likely a pve chump who doesn't know how to use a warrior effectively and will not bring proper counters.

As for soothing images, anything goes in low-end pvp arenas, so this was merely a suggestion for countering defy pain as well as any other adrenaline based builds(as you mentioned we no longer have to deal with warrior's endurance). Considering what's abound in AB and likewise, I really don't see why it would hurt to bring it if you have an illusion magic build... but that goes back to the silly premise of this thread again, doesn't it?

Who really cares about defy pain nubz in pvp?

Easy to counter, easy to overlook. In AB i usually run right past them.

Quote:

Still though, I think that Defy Pain is only good for prolonging games and griefing which sets it apart.

Defy Pain is useless in pvp, and fairly good for tanking in pve. That's all there really is to it. If you've been around pvp enough, which I don't honestly believe you have, you'd know it was useless.

HawkofStorms · Jul 04, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Sympathetic/Ancestor's Visage are also available (and those actually have seen use in PvP before). Although blind or miss hexes is probably better since that can be used against rangers, etc as well.

RotteN · Jul 05, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by silicagel

Defy Pain is useless in pvp, and fairly good for tanking in pve. That's all there really is to it. If you've been around pvp enough, which I don't honestly believe you have, you'd know it was useless.

Pretty sure I on the other hand, have been around in PvP long enough, and the current Defy Pain does have it's uses in lower arena's (AB, RA, ...).

It's good for some relaxed messing around, but in GvG i doubt it'll ever see any serious play. There are better elites on a warrior.

Oh yeah, if you need skills like Defy Pain in PvE, you seriously s*ck *ss.

silicagel · Jul 05, 2009, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

It's good for some relaxed messing around, but in GvG i doubt it'll ever see any serious play. There are better elites on a warrior.

That doesn't mean it's useful.. unless you think being a nuissance or conquering low-end pvp arenas is important. I could probably take a generic axe or sword build with defy pain and do reasonably well, but it seems to have this way of painting a big target on your back because people become determined to kill you, despite the fact that killing you will not accomplish anything. That's really the problem here, people who fret about killing you and your 900 health or whatever. If you know the direct counters(of which there are *many*), it's no problem, but if you're some casual pver who drops into ab, then it might seem difficult.

but i have to make a point about low-end pvp.. it's intentionally designed to be random as pertaining to team success, so why should anyone care?

Quote:

Oh yeah, if you need skills like Defy Pain in PvE, you seriously s*ck *ss.

Defy pain works good in pve considering the amount of hard hitting, high level foes who'll spank your melee butt if you're not careful. I dare you to bring your healing sig/frenzy combo(as seen in your avatar) to some of these pve places.

Reverend Dr · Jul 05, 2009, 02:12 AM // 02:12

A point I tried to make a while back is that Defy Pain is a skill that is either going to be useless or a part of a very undesirable gimmick. It is one of very many skills that fit that category.

It doesn't need to be nerfed, but it also doesn't need to be in the game at all.

Aeon221 · Jul 05, 2009, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by silicagel

If you've been around pvp enough, which I don't honestly believe you have, you'd know it was useless.

You are a damned dirty liar sir, and I challenge you to HONORABLE 1V1!

Defy Pain has a use, ergo it is not useless. That use is GOING BALLS DEEP!!!

silicagel · Jul 05, 2009, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeon221

you are a damned dirty liar sir, and i challenge you to honorable 1v1!

Defy pain has a use, ergo it is not useless. That use is going balls deep!!!

ok i fite u we have honerbl dual

gameshoes3003 · Jul 05, 2009, 07:08 AM // 07:08

I think that anybody who has played the first game will strongly disagree with your complaint.
Since Guild Wars Guru never updates its skill list, here's the old description:
Defy Pain {Elite} - Skill
For 12 seconds, you have an additional 90-258 health and an additional 20 AL.

Sure it's 12 seconds, but by god that is much harder to maintain than 20, and it's weaker than the current form.
So I don't think it's going to be changed.

SilentVex · Jul 05, 2009, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Yes, this is primarily a Factions pvp/RA issue. Just because a skill isn't used much in HA/gvg doesn't mean it isn't a problem. If you're here to show people how awesome you are at a dead game's pvp and how they're scrubs because they play lesser forms of pvp, go somewhere else. This isn't the time or the place.

Switching targets off a DP war isn't the issue here. Of course you'd kill a bs tank last. I'm not saying they're a huge threat, but they do still accomplish objectives. Also, warriors have the best single target dps in the game, and losing their elite for defense doesn't hurt that as much as you think (those nH gvg matches are a great example of DP in the hands of good players). Being able to accomplish pvp objectives + still doing decent dps = it is just as important to kill them as anyone else.

What is the issue here is that it is a drag to encounter them in pvp. Having to bring hard counters for a silly tank build is a drag (especially in a party size 4 or random party format). Having to stand around DPSing them 4v1 for 15-20 seconds or leaving them alive because you have no hard counter is a drag. Watching your scrub allies waste time trying to kill them in the middle of a skirmish is a drag.

The bottom line is that an instant activation, unremovable, easily maintainable, 20 second duration defensive skill as powerful as DP simply should not exist. It doesn't break pvp in the sense of being objectively overpowered, it breaks pvp in the sense of pacing and gameplay.

Lastly, I don't think anyone is suggesting nerfing it for PvE. Make it a BFG 9000 in PvE for all I care.

Šiljo · Jul 05, 2009, 02:05 PM // 14:05

/notsigned

less QQ more hex and condis....

Regulus X · Jul 05, 2009, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Šiljo

/notsigned

less qq more hex and condis....

win! 12345678

HuntMaster Avatar · Jul 05, 2009, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azadaleou

Who said the point was to fill up your bar with skills that have no synergy with one another? Any skill in this game can be that way if you don't understand the details of the skill system. My point of mentioning how all the skills make the game unique is that you are free to create a build that works extremely well. Its all about trying to come up with skills that are in perfect synergy. Its impossible to say what skills are useful and useless because I doubt that every possible synergy has or ever will be discovered.

For 'me", trying to create that perfect synergy of 8 out of so many skills is WHAT makes the game. If I wanted a limited amount of skills that didn't leave room for this then I would go play WoW and be happy with the talent trees. If someone is dumb enough to put 8 different types of condition removals on their bar then that is their problem. Don't blame it on the system for allowing such thing, blame it on the player. When I create a build it often feels like playing the lotto. All the numbers have the potential to be a winner, its just the combination and order of them that makes that potential into a reality.

I agree, but many of the skills in gw are pointless and could have been more useful skills with unique benefits instead of variants of the same thing. If you sit back and look at all the skills in the game and then think of all the different effects missing from the game, you will quickly see that gw does indeed have tons of pointless skills. We need less variants and more originals.

PS: Update- Ran defy pain with a hammer KD build and won three in a row in RA before I got bored and quit. The 2nd match, our opponents got so frustrated they left. KD DP war, healing/prot monk, condition ranger and a mesmer FTW!

sweet555 · Jul 06, 2009, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azadaleou

I would be sort of disappointed to not see a lot of skills in GW2. What makes GW1 unique is the fact that there is so many skills to choose from, like a card deck. While its true that its probably hard to balance, its just a negative side to its pvp system. Every mmo has some sort of negative, whether it be a notorious grinding fest or overpowered classes.

I agree there is a ton of skills to choose from in GW1, but one of the issues is that not every skill is meant for the Meta. i feel as if the devs are pushing the game one way, thus making certain skills better than others.

THere is always the issue with not being able to use every single skill in PvP, since some skills are just crap in pvp, thus i do find having like a billion skills a major issue.

Sarevok Thordin · Jul 11, 2009, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Bump, this skill is a total nucience that serves no purpose than to waste time.

HawkofStorms · Jul 11, 2009, 03:38 PM // 15:38

I've seen screenshots of people getting 5 game win streaks in RA as a warrior with no skills on their bar. Just because it can be used in RA, doesn't mean it's good.

talon994 · Jul 11, 2009, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Defy Pain in PvP is used by people who don't know how to play warrior's. They sit there in crappy armour pressing the 1 key hoping that they wont get killed.

]HM[ Sabre Wolf · Jul 11, 2009, 04:44 PM // 16:44

I wont ignore the fact that Defy Pain makes a good cover for Frenzy... I played a build with that combo, and I must say it was fun just to stay in Frenzy the whole time while everything around you is beating on you for 0-12 damage a hit and I am at like 880+ HP... Which I will also say makes a good buffer for a skill like Flesh of my Flesh or D-Pact, were half your HP is still 400-somthing... Its not a bad play really, but it does eat into your DPS against other Elites like Evis out there that could be a better choice. I guess its just whatever style you want to play... an Offensive High DPS output, or a Grinding High Defensive Pressure.

IronSheik · Jul 11, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

So I herd insidyus parsite kills deez